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Post by resistk on Aug 23, 2013 20:51:58 GMT 4
Will the rumored reconciliation between the Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) and the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) trigger a little-known clause that will force the redemption of billions of dollars in defaulted Chinese government debt? In 1949, Chiang Kai-shek’s (蔣介石) Nationalists made a successful last stand on the island outpost of Taiwan against the almost victorious red tide of Mao Zedong (毛澤東). However, prior to 1949, Chiang’s Republic of China (ROC) was a profligate issuer of sovereign bonds, most of it backed by gold. These bonds sold around the world and were underwritten by the largest banking houses like HSBC, Barings, Bank of China and JPMorgan. They were viewed as gilt edge investments with a high rate of interest. Full Story here: www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2013/08/23/2003570352 |
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Post by Sapphire Capital on Aug 24, 2013 0:42:49 GMT 4
Interesting article but frankly I find this running after old bonds from the WWII and related times a little silly. Sure the investors got burned and sure there may be a moral responsibility but the lawsuits will not bring a solution. The entity which issued the bonds does not really exist anymore. Neither Taiwan nor mainland China will pay a dime because even when the legal situation would be disputable who would enforce it? A US which needs China financially or go broke? A EU which needs China or go broke? The Japanese?
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Post by resistk on Aug 24, 2013 4:53:14 GMT 4
Interesting article but frankly I find this running after old bonds from the WWII and related times a little silly. Sure the investors got burned and sure there may be a moral responsibility but the lawsuits will not bring a solution. The entity which issued the bonds does not really exist anymore. Neither Taiwan nor mainland China will pay a dime because even when the legal situation would be disputable who would enforce it? A US which needs China financially or go broke? A EU which needs China or go broke? The Japanese? You'd be right if they were Czarist bonds that the French still claim are valuable however the debtor is the Republic of China (ROC). ROC is still government in exile on its province Taiwan and it still claims the Mainland, Tibet, and Mongolia. The Kuomintang is still the ruling party and their law reaffirms the bonds - Article 63 (2004) which states the bonds are deferred until reunification. Upon reunification, the bonds would be enforceable against ROC. But I wouldn't rush out and buy any - they are overvalued at present. Any eventual settlement would be face plus some simple interest yet would be far more than cents on the dollar at face value. |
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Post by resistk on Aug 24, 2013 4:55:10 GMT 4
The reaffirmation of the bonds was pushed through under the only non Kuomintang government of the Republic China under the DPP government Chen Shui-bian. Likely an attempt at a poison pill on the reunification issue.
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Post by privateinvestors on Aug 24, 2013 5:21:04 GMT 4
Very interesting topic. I will be looking forward to more updates about this. I have a friend in Kuala Lumpur with some U.S. Dollar bonds, issued in 1935 and he has been trying to find a historian whom will be able to help my friend establish they historical and current value. I wish I knew how to post pictures of these bonds, using this current site.
Best wishes to one and all.
P.I. / Formerly posting as "ukipa"
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Post by miriammuraba on Aug 24, 2013 5:33:42 GMT 4
Republic of China was in existence from 1912 to 1949, then it is split into the Peoples Republic of China and the Republic of China in Taiwan. The current propossals all run into the direction of something like an asset deal, meaning the husk of an inactive Republic of China will be left, while Taiwan will becaome a province of the People's Republic of China and as there will be nothing. The Kuomintang is a political party, they are not the state, I know they ran and sometimes still run Taiwan as if they own it but frankly their legal status is a party only, latest since 1987 Taiwan is a multi-party country. anyway: whoever wants them look at: www.glabarre.com/category/Chinese_Bonds/c123 |
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Post by resistk on Aug 24, 2013 7:36:31 GMT 4
Republic of China was in existence from 1912 to 1949, then it is split into the Peoples Republic of China and the Republic of China in Taiwan. The current propossals all run into the direction of something like an asset deal, meaning the husk of an inactive Republic of China will be left, while Taiwan will becaome a province of the People's Republic of China and as there will be nothing. The Kuomintang is a political party, they are not the state, I know they ran and sometimes still run Taiwan as if they own it but frankly their legal status is a party only, latest since 1987 Taiwan is a multi-party country. anyway: whoever wants them look at: www.glabarre.com/category/Chinese_Bonds/c123That's an interesting proposal but the Taiwanese would never vote to join China. The PRC has indicated it will invade if Taiwan casts off the the current status quo of the Republic of China and declares independence. So the ROC serves a purpose. The prices on those bonds are fairly high given they not are not rare; most of the buyers are not collectors. The collectible market exists in the US as the SEC has ruled those bonds are historical documents only and not securities but the prices suggest otherwise. For another take on the matter see americanbondholdersfoundation.com/The ABF stance is inexplicable but has its almost religious followers. But the PRC paying off on ROC bonds seems impossible to me; yet it happened once before as part of the Hong Kong deal in 1997 albeit at less than face value and for only a single issue as far as I know, the 1913 gold bonds. |
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Post by niseag on Aug 24, 2013 8:04:04 GMT 4
the Taiwanese may not like to be the 23rd province but I'm not so sure they have a choice, with their protector down on his luck and shackled with a president who lost all political capital internationally, there is no protection in sight. Beijing may be tempted to make an offer they can not refuse!
Hong Kong was all that much money and even if Beijing would pay now a days, they might just sell of their US Treasuries and pay in worthless USD ;-)
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Post by niseag on Aug 24, 2013 8:06:04 GMT 4
privateinvestor send the pictures to Admin, if they are under 1 MB they can be posted here. If they are bigger use mega.co.nz/ and get the public link to post that. |
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Post by resistk on Aug 24, 2013 17:45:36 GMT 4
privateinvestor send the pictures to Admin, if they are under 1 MB they can be posted here. If they are bigger use mega.co.nz/ and get the public link to post that. I have Kuhlmann's book, the Bible on these bonds, we can identify and point you to the values on eBay. |
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Post by privateinvestors on Aug 25, 2013 19:12:52 GMT 4
privateinvestor send the pictures to Admin, if they are under 1 MB they can be posted here. If they are bigger use mega.co.nz/ and get the public link to post that. I will do so. Thank you. Best wishes, P.I. / Ukipa / Tony |
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Post by ukipa on Nov 13, 2013 4:04:51 GMT 4
Jonlevy, what is the latest on your case against the Vatican's bank? And, may I inquire, do you know or heard about Mr. Jean-Paul Vigier?
Best wishes to one and all.
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